sinful words (
and_chocolate) wrote2004-04-29 11:14 pm
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Constructive criticism?
(Crossposting this to my non-RPS journal as well, because I think it applies to all genres/subgenres of slash that I write.)
I love writing. A lot of what I love about writing is taking a story that starts out inside my brain and putting it into words to share with other people, so that it ends up in their brains and, I hope, hearts. Which means that it's important to me to understand what is and is not effective about my writing.
That's where y'all come in. *g*
I know that I've got a reasonably good grasp of the mechanics of writing; I can put together a sentence with correct spelling and punctuation, a paragraph that makes sense, and a story that gets from Point A to Point B with some semblance of a plot. That said, what I don't know is what my writing is missing. There are a lot of folks out there who write with no more technical skill than me, but whose stories are highly praised.
Why? What does [insert author of your choice here]'s fiction have that mine doesn't?
What I don't want: reassurances or praise.
What I do want: people to rip my fiction apart and give me strong constructive criticism on anything -- prose style, technical skill, subject matter, etc. -- that they find lacking. Please?
I love writing. A lot of what I love about writing is taking a story that starts out inside my brain and putting it into words to share with other people, so that it ends up in their brains and, I hope, hearts. Which means that it's important to me to understand what is and is not effective about my writing.
That's where y'all come in. *g*
I know that I've got a reasonably good grasp of the mechanics of writing; I can put together a sentence with correct spelling and punctuation, a paragraph that makes sense, and a story that gets from Point A to Point B with some semblance of a plot. That said, what I don't know is what my writing is missing. There are a lot of folks out there who write with no more technical skill than me, but whose stories are highly praised.
Why? What does [insert author of your choice here]'s fiction have that mine doesn't?
What I don't want: reassurances or praise.
What I do want: people to rip my fiction apart and give me strong constructive criticism on anything -- prose style, technical skill, subject matter, etc. -- that they find lacking. Please?
no subject
i think you've got the technique of writing down, you're good at it. but the heart-bit is missing a bit, for me. i'm not saying your heart isn't in it, but... when i read your stories, i find myself thinking "this is really cleverly structured" and not... i'm not touched by it so much, usually. i wish i could be more helpful than that, but it's hard because i don't know what exactly it is that's missing. i just don't feel like i get under the skin of the characters, you know?
another problem i have with your fiction sometimes is the characterization. the orlando piece you did a while back? it's really good, the writings excellent, but i'm not buying the characterization (if you want me to explain why, i'd be happy to). and to me, that's more important. i guess that's one of the not-very-nice side affects of writing fanficition and not original fiction, people already have the characters in their head, and if the character you write don't match up with the one in the readers head, it's going to be a lot harder to get the reader on "your side" so to speak. if it was original fiction, you have a blank character to work with, which is both easier and harder in a way, i guess.
the only advice i can give you is to focus less on the structure & the mechanics of writing when you write and focus more on the story you're trying to tell. i don't know if that would help, i haven't written much so my experience is lacking at best, but that's the only thing i can think of.
and i hope you understand that i'm not saying this in a sort of "this is what you're doing wrong!"-way, i'm just trying to explain how i feel about your fic. you're more than welcome to say hey, that chick's on crack, and disregard this whole rant :)
& i know you said you didn't want reassurances, but i don't think i ever told you how much i loved your DIY series. so i'm taking the opportunity here. you should write more OB/EW. yes. :)
no subject
*kisses you soundly*
Thank you!
i just don't feel like i get under the skin of the characters, you know?
Feh. That's what I was afraid people were going to say. I kind of suspected it, but I don't know how to fix it; I don't know exactly how I'm failing to engage people in the characters.
focus less on the structure & the mechanics of writing when you write and focus more on the story you're trying to tell.
Yeah, I suspect that I tend to overthink things. I just worry that if I don't give some thought to it, there'll be no...meat...to the story. No interesting metaphor, no overarching themes, nothing but two guys sounding like 13-year-old girls angsting about whether or not they're going to fuck. *laughs* Welcome to my neuroses.
i'm not saying this in a sort of "this is what you're doing wrong!"-way, i'm just trying to explain how i feel about your fic.
Don't apologize! Really, this is what I wanted, so thank you very, very much. You've helped.
i don't think i ever told you how much i loved your DIY series. so i'm taking the opportunity here. you should write more OB/EW. yes. :)
Thank you for that, too. I want to write more, but I'm kind of floundering at the moment. Feeling a little lost. Hence this post. *g*
no subject
yeah, see, this is why i normally don't say much. because yes, that would be a much smarter way of saying what i was trying to say but ended up ranting about instead. :)
I don't know exactly how I'm failing to engage people in the characters.
i wish i could be more helpful with this, but i don't really know, either. i just get a distant feeling sometimes, when i'm reading your stuff. i'm not in there with the boys. and the only advice i can give (and i know it kinda sucks because it's so much easier to say than to do) is to try not to construct so much and just tell instead.
do you ever write stream-of-conscious-like? just sit and let something come out in whatever way it wants? no planning or plotting? i do that a lot, and even thought the results aren't great, it's good as exercise. and sometimes it gives you something that you can add structure and to, build around so to speak?
i have to disclaim again though, i have absolutely no idea what i'm talking about :)
and um, the overthinking, i do that too, all the time. the last fic i posted was just a little over a 1000 words. that went through maybe three or four drafts, two betas and all in all took me over a month to write. and it's just a little fluffy smutlet with absolutely no point. so i can relate to that. a lot.
Really, this is what I wanted, so thank you very, very much. You've helped.
yay, i'm useful! & i'm glad you don't hate me now. that would make me sad.
completely random: i don't know if you remember, but a while back we bonded over the love of the porn & chocolate story, and i told you he's told it on conan back in dec, and you said "clips! i want clips!" and i didn't have any. but now, behold! i have (with um, some help) found it:
here (http://www.theargonath.cc/cast/wood/videos/videos.html) (third link from the top, elijah on conan dec 17, 2003)
(and you've probably already found it weeks ago, but i've been looking for it for so long it seemed silly not to mention it :D)
no subject
Sort of. I mean, that's how I write my RPS stories, except that there's usually a basic plot/outline first. Even if it's just, "What if Elijah walked in on Orlando masturbating?" My FPS tends to get more plotted out.
i don't know if you remember, but a while back we bonded over the love of the porn & chocolate story
Yes, I remember! (You should ping me when you're on IM sometime, BTW....)
but now, behold! i have (with um, some help) found it ... (and you've probably already found it weeks ago, but i've been looking for it for so long it seemed silly not to mention it :D)
No! I had not found it. So yay, and thank you! I downloaded it and watched enough to see the porn & chocolate story; the rest will have to wait until I feel better. You were right, BTW. His delivery was better on Leno. Though I absolutely loved how Conan tried to derail him a little with the, "I'll bet your publicist loves this story," but Elijah will not be dissuaded from saying embarrassing things in public, no!
*loves Elijah lots*
no subject
hrmm, yes, i should. & ditto! and um, the only reason i haven't done so before is because, well, i'm shy. and easily intimidated by smart people like yourself. but i'll try work up a bit of courage and say hi sometime :)
Though I absolutely loved how Conan tried to derail him a little with the, "I'll bet your publicist loves this story," but Elijah will not be dissuaded from saying embarrassing things in public, no!
hee! yes, i love that bit too. and the part where they're talking about people mistaking them for women on the phone. that displeased "nnnnhh"-sound elijah makes? cutest. thing. ever.
no subject
Just finally got around to watching the rest of the Conan thing and Oh. My. God. You are so right! That is so cute!
*is seriously thinking of making that a notification sound on her computer*
Poor, frustrated weE!
a long and blithery answer...
Okay, so:
I'd never read any of your stories before. I clicked the one at the top of your memories: 'Voyeur'. And my first impression was that it was much shorter than a story I would generally read. So, I guess if you think about stories as things that compete for people's attention along with other lj entries and other stories, you kind of lost - well, my attention at least *g*, but maybe other people's as well - just because of the length alone. Which is to say, if I were to click on that link, having seen it on my friends list, I would probably see that it was very short, and close the window before reading it. It's a preference thing and short stories are absolutely not inherently 'worse' than longer stories, but I think it's a preference that quite a lot of people share.
Okay, so the next thing I did was click on 'Stop, Rewind, (re)Play' - which I saw had two parts. And the first thing I saw was this:
Warning: Might be construed by purists as having elements of song-fic, though it's really not intended that way. Also, there's some really mild bondage.
And, again, my first instinct was the close the window. Because, even though you've got 'not really intended that way', which lessens the impact of the scary 'song-fic' word, the 'song-fic' taint is there! *g*.
My advice would be to not use the word 'song-fic' in the summary. Even if it's true, you're probably going to lose a whole bunch of readers who might otherwise be interested in the story. I guess one way to think of it, is to think of the summary and the initial story post as an 'ad' for the story. It's either going to help you get readers or hinder you from getting readers.
(cont. in the next comment!)
a long and blithery answer... (part 2)
Okay (wow, I'm blithering) -- moving on to the story itself.
I think for about the first page or so, stories (in general) are still in 'hold the reader's interest' mode. So I'm going to do a short crit of the first few paragraphs.
The loud, unforgiving buzz of Elijah's alarm cuts into his pleasant dreams and he reaches one hand out, blindly groping for the fucking snooze button in the dark and then (god-fucking-dammit) his glasses clatter off the top of the clock and onto the hardwood floor. He finally smacks the elusive button and the alarm stops its bleating, leaving him blinking in the dark, his eyes feeling like someone's replaced the lids with fine grit sandpaper while he's been asleep.
Squinting over at the glowing red numbers, he sighs. He'd already cut it as close as he could afford when he'd set his alarm last night; this morning there will be no snoozing a half dozen times until he feels more awake. He gropes along the top of the clock, finding the slider switch that turns the alarm off and flicking it, desperately resisting the temptation to let his eyelids fall closed again.
Okay, first, you're completely right, you have a really great grasp of mechanics. Second, I think you could probably wield that grasp in a more effective way by really focusing on the *story* part of the story. Which is to say, that these first paragraphs read a whole lot, a *whole* lot slower than the events that actually are taking place in them.
Part of that is because there are too many adjectives, and not-really-that-interesting adjectives. For example, 'loud, unforgiving buzz' gives me no clearer mental picture than 'buzz' alone. (And, in fact, a word like 'buzz' is generally strong enough and evocative enough to stand on its own).
Secondly, the content itself isn't very interesting: Elijah wakes up and he has a shower. It's fine to have that in a story but by making that the beginning of your story, and by describing it at length, you're really forcing the reader to pay a lot of attention to a part of the story that really isn't that interesting. Which gives the impression that the story itself won't be interesting. (And that's just not true!)
So, I know if I were beta-reading this, before I would even start cutting adjectives, I would cut to the heart of the story - to where the story really starts. And I would suggest that that point is probably about here:
Elijah's not surprised that Viggo's a good kisser, but he is surprised at the passion behind the kiss.
This is where the story starts to get active, and where Elijah starts to seem really engaged with the events in his own story. And where I, as a reader, started to feel engaged too.
So yeah, basically, you have a great grasp of the mechanics of writing (which is nothing to sniff at! that's hard!), but what I think you don't have yet (and this is something you'll totally get a handle on, because you're already 80% there) is a really good grasp of the kind of storytelling that appeals to a wider audience. And I think you could probably get better at that by concentrating on the story, and not worrying so much about the description.
You asked why people praise other stories and not necessarily yours, and I really don't know, but this is just my 20ish cents of guessing.
I think in *general*, wider audiences enjoy:
1. A story with a defined plot.
2. A story with a single, popular pairing.
3. A story with a happy ending.
But yeah, I'm just guessing.
Re: a long and blithery answer... (part 2)
I'm less worried, though, about people skipping over my stories (which seems to be your focus) than I am about why my stories don't engage people when they do read them. Why people finish a story and think to themselves, "Well, that was okay," instead of, "Wow!"
I really, really appreciate your critique; thank you so much for taking the time to look at stories you hadn't already read so that you could comment.
no subject
So here’s a little experiment. One of my favorites by you is “Pull”. So I’ve taken the liberty of doing a locked-to-you-only edit here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/deleerium/16072.html). (‘cause it’s too long for a comment)
1) I simply struck out the words that I had to ‘get around’ in order to follow the story. [My definition of a ‘get around’ word is one that related to the narrator rather than a character (for example: “but it had seemed like a good one at the time” in the first paragraph– it strikes me as an aside by the narrator and not essential to the storytelling) or an awkward adjective.]
2) The only emotional words you used:
‘slyly’ (Billy as he winks on his way out the door)
‘confidence’ (Dom as he approaches the women at the table)
‘wondering’ (the boys as they watch Dom to see if he’ll succeed)
And it left me CRAVING
I wanted to know more about Dom’s interactions with the two blondes. Did he look smug? Was he pleading? Teasing? Funny? Did the women have a reaction that was visible other than leaving with him?
Billy’s interaction with the redhead: masterfully flirting? Seductive? What were the expressions like on her face?
Orlando/Elijah – was there anything sensual about them on the dance floor? Determined? Surprised? Inevitable?
I’m convinced that you already know what all of them are thinking/experiencing/going through at every moment (I think) and I’m just DYING to see it on the page.
I think it’s important to say that I’m not suggesting you add entire descriptive paragraphs. The story arc itself is amazing -- the concept unique and lovely and just the right length. But I (as a reader) want at least one clue -- one little emotional clue word – for every interaction between characters. You don’t have to say “Billy felt smug.” But if you can combine your actions with the emotions they are related to? That would be the loveliest thing ever.
*grin* it’s also important to tell you that I do this in my own writing. Before it even goes to the beta, I cut through at least ½ the adjectives (which is a good thing -- I think -- cause I’m already the crazy adjective psycho queen) trying to find the action. And I have the opposite problem with the emotion – that I try to express too much sometimes in one scene and find myself having to pull back and say “ok, would Orlando really really feel x, y AND z? or would Elijah look x-emotionally at him that way? Or am I just getting wrapped up in the description?”.
So, there's my literary critique for the day ;)
luv, D
p.s. this is a fabulous idea, btw -- ok if i steal the concept?
no subject
1) sometimes I have to dodge your adjectives to get to the action
Okay, it just cracks my shit up that two people have mentioned adjective abuse, because that's the main thing that's stylistically different between my RPS and my FPS, but the FPS -- despite its lack of adjectives -- doesn't seem to get any better reception.
Also two people have pointed out what they consider to be problems that, to me, are things necessitated by some aspect of the story. Kaneko pointed out the slow start of Stop, Rewind, (re)Play, which, IMO, was necessary for the repeating-day plot device, and you pointed out the more distant nature of Pull, which is the only omniscient POV story I've ever written; as omniscient, it has to be a little more distant. (Besides, that was a tricky story. I had to be able to sneak the ending up on the reader without them feeling like I'd cheated. *g*)
it strikes me as an aside by the narrator and not essential to the storytelling
Again, I'd say it's informing the reader right up front what to expect from the POV of the story: external omniscient. However, I'm absolutely willing to admit that I did a crap job with the POV; I've never been happy with my attempts at omniscient in the past, which is why I'd never finished one until Pull.
But if you can combine your actions with the emotions they are related to? That would be the loveliest thing ever.
*headdesk* Sometimes I hate writing.
Okay, so I need to focus on the emotions of the characters. I'm probably not going to do that by replacing excess adjectives with adverbs, though, because IMO adverbial excess is just as bad as adjectival excess. *g*
I really appreciate the critique, and I'm going to look at your in-depth edit of Pull now.
p.s. this is a fabulous idea, btw -- ok if i steal the concept?
Absolutely! Feel free.
you asked for honest!
Also I have a deep fear that I'm going to sound like a pompous ass, so, um. Anyway.
What Kaneko and some of the others above seem to be getting at is less about adjectives vs adverbs or description vs. action, and more about skill vs. cunning, if that makes any sense.
There's a tendency among fan writers who are really really good, technically and stylistically, to feel stumped in just the same way you seem to. You're clearly at the top of your game in every technical sense, you have a firm grasp of the styles you favor, and from what you've said above, you're practically religious in your revision-beta-revision-beta process. So given that you've perfected your art, and you're still not getting the reactions you want to get -- what's missing?
This is all just my opinion, so please feel free to totally disregard it. But I think what's missing is imperfection.
Messiness. You know how you have to know the rules to know when to break them? It's like that. Perfect stories are good, and people like them, but if you file off all the rough edges, if everything makes sense and is tidy and shiny and clean -- even grit can be written too shiny -- good is as good as you get.
What pushes a story out of "Hey, that was pretty good" and into "Wow, that was fucking brilliant!" for me is the element of surprise. 99% of fanfic, my own included, consists of characters doing things that create conflict that is then resolved or not resolved in ways that are fairly consistent with the kind of story being written. But that last percent -- that's characters doing and saying horrible, unforgivable things and then being forgiven for them, against all expectation; that's the characters in the viciously grim story actually finding a way to be happy, or the characters in the happy thrilling story ever quite working things out. It's characters whose emotions don't really make any sense but you have to work with them anyway, and so do the other characters, whose emotions also don't really make any sense.
I'm not saying any of this very well. I think it's about taking risks. Use adverbs, even though everyone says you're not supposed to, even if you feel like you're not supposed to; if doing what you feel like you're supposed to were getting you the results you wanted, you wouldn't have asked this question. Don't use four betas, because once a story's edges have been whittled down enough to please four different people, it's tame, and tame stories can only ever aspire to "good". Tell instead of showing, because sometimes showing is just tedious and gets in the way and telling can cut right to the heart. Stop before you write the next line of dialogue and write a different line of dialogue instead, just to see what happens. Worry more about writing a story with emotional turbulence or strength than about maintaining your style or structure or tone. Style and structure and tone are less important to fannish readers than feeling an emotional connection to the characters.
I think what people are trying to say is that you've gone as far as a writer can go in terms of proficiency, so it's something else, something not having to do with technical skill. The best way to figure out what that is, in my opinion, is to take some real risks. Fans remember the stuff that makes them feel the most; we're emotional junkies, every single one of us. All that differs is what kind of stuff we want to feel.
And, um, that's pretty much all I got. So, like I said, maybe I'm on crack, but that's what it looks like from the cheap seats.
Re: you asked for honest!
pardon me while i just *fangirl* you for that perfect description of fangirl!me -- thank you :)
Re: you asked for honest!
You? Never. *ducks and runs*
Seriously, though, you're someone whose opinions I trust; you craft the kind of story that I want to be able to write, and while I know that being able to do something doesn't always equate to being able to teach others to do that same thing, I'm willing to let you have a swing at it.
I think it's about taking risks. ... Worry more about writing a story with emotional turbulence or strength than about maintaining your style or structure or tone. ... Fans remember the stuff that makes them feel the most; we're emotional junkies, every single one of us.
This makes so much sense. I'm looking back at some of my favorite stories with this in mind, and it just...yeah. I guess my problem, when writing, is that I'm really harsh on myself when it comes to character motivations. A scene that I wouldn't think twice about (or would absolutely love) in someone else's story, makes me cringe and rewrite it because I feel like the characters are acting too much like 13-year-old girls.
And, um, that's pretty much all I got. So, like I said, maybe I'm on crack, but that's what it looks like from the cheap seats.
Obviously, the cheap seats are the place with the best view in this arena, because I think that was a pretty damn good recap of the action. Thank you!
The hard part is going to be implmenting the necessary changes. *g*
no subject
honey, i believe you are preaching to the proverbial choir *g* ;)
i just wanted to say a nodding 'yes, I see' to your comments above and say thank you. this entire exercise has been a huge help in examining my writing as well :)
so *mwah* for your gumption and willingness to ask for a second, and third and fourth...opinions ;)
luv, D